SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed -> "We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]" + continue where I left off

So here, "Veering off subject before the previous one was thoroughly discussed" is the manipulation tactic. A real example of this that I can provide you is me saying to him, "I have concerns about our child's nutrition while I'm away," and we get as far on that topic as the expression that she needs to eat often and to have nutritious foods, but before we get to the part where we're supposed to address the issue, he veers off subject by introducing another one: "Well, at least I don't let her watch TV all day long like you do!" This shifts the focus of the conversation so that he doesn't have to accept fault for not feeding her properly, to something that I'm not doing well enough, before he agrees to make changes. That's manipulative.

No it’s not. It’s him feeling defensive that you don’t like how he parents. He is deflecting yes, manipulating no. This is not abuse. This is typical when both people want to be right and feel understood.

"'We can talk about [that] later, if you’d like. I want to circle back to [previous subject.]' + continue where I left off" is the response formula for preventing the manipulation. Here, that would sound like:

"We can talk about the amount of TV I let her watch later, if you'd like. I want to circle back to her nutrition... Are you able to make sure she has three meals a day and a couple snacks, and that she's getting fruits and vegetables during at least two of her meals?" This keeps the conversation on track so that we can address the issue. I care about the fact he doesn't like how much TV he watches and I'm willing to address that issue as well, just not at the expense of addressing her nutrition. Does that make sense?

How often are you really gone? What did he feed her this time?

I mean unless he is truly not feeding her, it’s better to let him parent his way, especially if it’s a seldom thing. When I used to travel my husband was bad about quick meals. Especially hotdogs, which I was not crazy about. But you know my kids kind of thought it was like a break from being serious and it gave them an opportunity to bond their way.

I would go through the other examples but it’s all the same. You two bicker, and equally escalate.

He is defensive, and sometimes doesn’t like you much. That’s normal for someone who has been cheated on twice, and trickle truthed.

If you want him to like you and be kinder then the only study guide you need is be likeable and kinder.

Don’t sweat the small stuff. Drive to understand and not to be understood. Avoid putting him on the defense for the foreseeable future and try instead to do things that bond the two of you, like friends.

I would never want a friend to hound me the way you both do to each other. But the only thing you can do is stop inviting him to a power struggle. One you are in a better place then start new boundaries. Put away all of this for a while. Wave the white flag and perform a truce.

Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere) -> "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." If misconstruction continues -> exit conversation: "This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later" + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response.

Here, "Misconstruing what I say, such that I have to go back and re-explain what I meant or where we took a wrong turn in the conversation (making conversation meta so we don’t get anywhere)" is the manipulation tactic. A real-life example of that is:

BH asking what we should do about dinner, because it was getting late,

Me responding by asking, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make those chicken nuggets you said you wanted to make, and it'll go bad if we don't cook it soon. I know the countertop is a mess, but I could move everything to the sink and do dishes while you cook. Or I could move everything to the sink, make something else with the chicken, and do the dishes in between tasks or afterwards..."

And his response was, "I don't understand why the expectation is for me to come home and have to cook dinner." (Here is the misconstruction of what it is I actually said.)

Now I'm back tracking and re-explaining, "That's not what I said. I said the chicken was going to go bad; I didn't freeze it because I thought you still wanted to make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up. You told me you didn't mind cooking dinner some nights, and so I asked you if you wanted to cook. I didn't say that I expected you to."

Him: "You sure made it seem like you did. And what I said was that I don't mind cooking dinner when the counter tops are clean" (Here he is doubling down on his interpretation of my words, rather than acknowledging that he misunderstood what was said.)

Me: "I didn't expect you to cook. I said I would clean off the countertops if you wanted to cook, or that I could cook--"

Him: "Why are you making crazy eyes and using that tone with me? You know what, I want an apology."

Notice how in that conversation, the focus shifted from what we were doing for dinner, to what was previously said and meant (i.e., the conversation becomes about itself, or 'meta') and we don't actually decide on what it is we're doing for dinner. All the while, it's getting later and later.

Back to the study guide. "Originally when I said [repeat what was said] I meant [summarize what was specifically meant.] Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood." is the first step in the prevention response, to be used after my words get misconstrued. That might look like:

"Originally when I said, "What do you want to do? I bought chicken and pickle juice so you could make chicken nuggets. We need to use it up," what I meant was that I was asking you if you wanted to cook. I also offered to cook. Can you respond with that in mind? That would help me feel heard and understood."

The study guide then says "If misconstruction continues," which might look like BH responding with "You sure made it seem like you expect me to cook,"

The follow up step is "exit conversation: 'This conversation has become unproductive and I don’t feel heard. Let’s take a break and try again later' + start over again later with same initial point and evaluate if he’s willing to adjust his response."

Which, in practice, looks like saying just that, and then after a brief break, re-initiating the conversation with something like, "Okay, let's figure out dinner. We need to use up that chicken. Would you like for me to clear the countertops so you can make chicken nuggets, or would you like me to cook?"

Then see how he responds to that. If he again returns to "Why do you expect me to cook?" it would suggest to me that he is intent on misconstruing what I'm asking, and the manipulation tactic is being used on purpose.

Does that make sense? Hopefully that clears up and contextualizes the study guide a bit for you.

Turning back to the next part of your response...

He didn’t misconstrue something important here. He heard "I would like you to cook the nuggets" and didn’t want to. That is a valid subjective summary of what you said, but stated in a negative way.

Did it make sense he should cook the nuggets, yes. He said he would like to make them, and you bought ingredients that he could do so. But you were suggesting he cook them.

Now, did he put a negative spin the way he said it. Yes. Because you two have a terribly antagonistic relationship and fight about shit that doesn’t matter.

If it were me, trying to reconcile. I would have answered his annoying "why am I expected to cook?"

I would have said "sorry, you are not expected. Would you like me to try the nugget recipe or are you in the mood for something else."

Would I live like that forever—-hell no. But I would model the behavior for some period of time, and if he didn’t start responding better in a few months of being consistent I would say "I think we need to learn to communicate better, I would like to go to MC together work on those skills with you because I love you and I think it’s important we work on our marriage."

If he doesn’t improve or agree to Mc then I would have to look at my boundaries.

Nothing you have described looks like abuse.

Manipulation can be being benign or abusive.

It looks like very poor communication skills due to excessive bickering. And bickering since you like concrete:

bickering

Bickering refers to the act of engaging in petty, peevish, or trivial arguments. It is typically a back-and-forth, repetitive exchange over minor matters rather than a serious, constructive debate.

Key Characteristics

Subject Matter: Often involves insignificant, daily details (e.g., who does the dishes, whose turn it is to drive, or misplaced items).

Tone: Generally ill-tempered, irritable, or sarcastic, rather than physical or deeply malicious.

Underlying Causes: Psychologically, it can act as an emotional shield; constant bickering often masks deeper, unresolved feelings like neglect, stress, or feeling unappreciated.

You are both doing it. It’s making both of you miserable with the other and it’s not modeling great behavior for your daughter or providing her with the environment she deserves and that’s worse than feeding her less nutritional meals or letting her watch tv. You are teaching her about relationships.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:05 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

No it’s not. It’s him feeling defensive that you don’t like how he parents. He is deflecting yes, manipulating no. This is not abuse. This is typical when both people want to be right and feel understood.

I agree that it's defensiveness. Deflection and subject-switching ARE manipulation tactics. According to an article titled "20 Emotional Manipulation Tactics: The List You Need To Know" that can be found on mypeoplepatterns dot com:

Deflection and Switchtracking
Definition: Changing the subject to avoid accountability.

Effects: Creates confusion and shifts focus.

Mechanism: Redirecting attention to avoid responsibility and manipulate conversations.

Example: Bringing up past mistakes of someone else when confronted about your own behavior.

Deflection and switchtracking are two related manipulation tactics that allow someone to avoid taking responsibility or to change the subject away from an uncomfortable topic. Deflection involves shifting blame, criticism or negative attention onto someone or something else to evade accountability. Switchtracking is a conversational pattern where one party seamlessly changes the topic or "switches tracks" to a different issue, often in response to feedback they don't want to hear. The switchtracked topic may be important too, but the abrupt shift means the original conversation gets derailed and both topics end up unresolved. Manipulators use deflection and switch tracking, consciously or unconsciously, to dodge difficult subjects and maintain control of the interaction.

If you combine that with the other tactics he used in that conversation, such as downplaying/minimizing ("How many times have you gone away, and how many times has she starved?") and gaslighting ("you're just making things up to be mad about") it's an undeniable pattern where he systematically eliminates my ability to communicate through issues with him. That's abusive.

This isn't about me "not liking his parenting" or "wanting to be right," this is about me trying to get our daughter basic and adequate care when I can't be there to provide it to her. I know for a fact it's not comfortable to admit when you haven't been doing what you're supposed to do for your own child, but that doesn't remove the fact that he has an obligation to do it.

How often are you really gone? What did he feed her this time?

I'm away at least monthly, anywhere from 1-21 days, most commonly 2-4 days. He didn't have to feed her anything this time because I drove across the state so that my mother could take care of her. When I do leave her home with him, he doesn't eat vegetables, so she doesn't get offered vegetables, nor any food that he isn't sure she'll eat literally all of. He gets mad at her if she takes whole fruit from the counter because she'll eat half of it, and then he gets mad that it gets wasted (it doesn't have to be wasted; the remains could be fed to the chickens, or at the very least, it could be composted.) He won't give her frozen fruit either, because it's messy. He doesn't cook for them, so they'll eat out, which means she'll get meals like chicken fingers and fries, buttered noodles, or chocolate chip pancakes. Because she's young and small, she doesn't have a huge stomach, so she needs to eat frequently. But if she only eats a small part of her meal and asks for a snack, he'll say no because she didn't eat all of her meal, or if he does give her a snack, the next time she's asks for food, he says no because "she's been eating all day." She's developed a habit of sneaking food and closet eating, which concerns me a lot as someone with a genetic propensity for binge eating disorder. So like, yeah, she hasn't starved to death. But is that really the standard for her care?? Not "eats enough to support her growth and has a mostly nutritious diet?" He's making me seem unreasonable for asking for that, instead of just trying to do better.

You two bicker, and equally escalate.

I don't understand why you keep downplaying this and insisting that I must be doing something to equally cause it. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells trying to approach these issues as gently as possible in the hopes he doesn't do this shit to me and we can actually resolve the issue at hand. I don't think I deserve this at all.

He didn’t misconstrue something important here. He heard "I would like you to cook the nuggets" and didn’t want to. That is a valid subjective summary of what you said, but stated in a negative way.

Did it make sense he should cook the nuggets, yes. He said he would like to make them, and you bought ingredients that he could do so. But you were suggesting he cook them.

Now, did he put a negative spin the way he said it. Yes. Because you two have a terribly antagonistic relationship and fight about shit that doesn’t matter.

If it were me, trying to reconcile. I would have answered his annoying "why am I expected to cook?"

I would have said "sorry, you are not expected. Would you like me to try the nugget recipe or are you in the mood for something else."

It's one thing if he says "Why am I expected to cook?" once. It's quite another thing if I say, "That's not what I said. I asked you if you wanted to cook, because the chicken's going to go bad, and I also offered to cook myself" and he doubles down with "Well it sure sounded like you expected me to cook." It's the same as the laundry thing; he has this narrative in his head that I'm a terrible housewife and I'm not upholding my half of the responsibilities. He's defending this narrative by distorting reality-- instead of his wife being willing to cook and trying to reduce waste to save money on groceries, and making sure they have the ingredients on hand so that he has the option of cooking the meal he previously expressed a desire to cook, in his head it's that he works all day while his wife sits around, and then he has to come home and slave away at the stove if he wants a hot meal. All he has to say is, "I'd prefer if you cook," and it'd be over and done with. But that doesn't support "She doesn't do anything," does it?

Like I'm not coming at him with "You don't feed our child right! You suck at parenting!" or "You're going to kill my chickens! Why can't you follow simple directions??" No. I specifically avoid "you" statements, saying things like "I have concerns about our daughter's diet when I'm away" or "Thanks for taking care of my chickens while I was away. There are a couple things that are really important to make sure get done next time..." and then bending over backwards to make it easy for him. I made a whole study guide to try and communicate better, ffs. But sure, that's just me "bickering" and "needing to be right" I guess.

I will say that with the job I have, I am absolutely not tolerant of this kind of defensive shit. This gets trained allll the fuck the way out of us, and we hold each other accountable so that the mission gets completed and we all grow as people in the process.

You two bicker, and equally escalate.

I don't understand why you keep downplaying this and insisting that I must be doing something to equally cause it.

Seriously? You love to argue! Admit it. Pages and pages of you arguing with just about every member and almost anything that gets written. The proof, as "they" say, is in the pudding.

Tell me honestly. Does your passion or compulsion to argue about everything ever get exhausting? Aren't you tired of it? Wouldn't it be nice to have a simple conversation about chicken nuggets?

I am going to answer a couple of things. You are probably going to blow up at me, and it’s unneeded- we can agree I won’t post further if you wish for me not to because I think it’s far more important you stay. I do seem some improvement in your restraint with the people of the forum and I give credit where it’s due.

1. If he is a bad father who you can’t leave you kid with, then why continue?

2. . It’s obvious from your narrative that you all feel very defensive with each other, and pretty equally. You are calling it abuse but as I have said manipulation can be benign, and also unintentional.

3. You feel I am minimizing, I feel you are maximizing and contributing directly to the dynamic because you refuse to see that you have caused a lot of the resentment he is exhibiting.

he has this narrative in his head that I'm a terrible housewife and I'm not upholding my half of the responsibilities.

No- he has a narrative in his head that is worse than that. He is restraining himself. It is far more likely:

"This woman continues to disrespect and disregard me by cheating on me. I am far too mentally exhausted to go through the litigation gymnastics she uses to get me to understand why. She obviously doesn’t love me the least she could do is…insert chore here"

But if he said that, it would make things far worse. So he is vindictive and defensive. The best way to counteract it is to find a way to see that pain and show him you love him and want to ease it—-in every way. But since you have been here you have described how he asked you to come to bed with him because it triggered him you were up alone. Normal bs request. You came up with the most unimportant reason not to do that—-cleaning. He doesn’t want you to clean really, he does but he doesn’t. He wants any reason to stay because he fucking loves you and wants this to work.

And all anyone has been trying to plead with you to do is consider him and what he needs right now more than you consider your need to be understood, to be perceived as good. Show your goodness and it won’t be questioned.

I have truly started to wonder if you act out in all these ways- the cheating, the litigating, the control because you don’t trust him to love you?

Can you not see there is such deep stuff here past what you are maximizing and what you feel I am minimizing?

You hang on to every point you have like it’s the most important thing you could ever say. That’s what people are telling you when they say things like you do it here.

4. You have said you have clearly explained how you are being abused, Yet when you describe abuse it sounds like two way bickering, in which you both at all times for the other to be wrong and you to be right. You try and paint yourself stance as reasonable but it isn’t.

If he had a physical wound you could see, you probably could understand better he feels cranky, tired, exhausted and you probably would be very loving and care for him while he healed. I mean I hope you would. But something in you can’t make his emotional wounds bigger than yours. And that’s what it’s going to take to turn the corner on this thing. You have to make that the priority for the next little while and learn to self soothe.

Later, after he has had time to rest, and you have turned the corner then pick one thing to work on. And I think here we both agree it’s communication. But until he believe you are in his side 100 percent, he is going to resist that progress because he doesn’t know how to be vulnerable with you. He is pushing you away out of fear and I sort of thing you are doing the same thing back to him for the same reason.

Your study guide is based on a skewed perception of the situation. Throw it away. It’s garbage. I understand the need for it, I had some rote responses myself for certain situations. But mine were with the intention of de-escalating, yours is to prevent abuse. Reality is if it was abuse you would still veer towards de-escalating because abused people tip toe.

Your new study guide: prove to him you love him, no matter what his external behavior looks like. Obviously if he was calling you names, shouting, or hitting you then don’t do that. But in all other cases that’s what this is going to take.

I think you may believe what is true- I do want to help you, I do want this to work for you. But you are doing everything that puts a nail in the coffin because you in the end aren’t taking on the responsibility of causing this trauma in the first place.

Now- was he probably fun to live with before? I am betting no! He is critical and when critical people get married it eats away at the love and tender feelings. I bet it. But by cheating you are sitting in a different paradigm where you are going to have to be the bigger person, lead the effort and be the steady rock. Once stability is back, which will be a long time from now, then you can start building the relationship you both want. He is far more likely to be cooperative if he doesn’t feel like he is going to go through these litigation techniques. I am starting to wonder if you are an attorney.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:16 PM, Friday, May 22nd]

I don't love to argue with him over how to feed our kid, when I did laundry last, who's cooking dinner, etc. I love a good debate about topics like the relative benefits and drawbacks of social media or AI, whether ID should be a requirement to vote, what limitations anti-discrimination laws and affirmative action should have, how much control the local government should have over your property, etc.

It would absolutely be nice to have a calm discussion about chicken nuggets.

Why do you think you do it? How does something as simple as dinner become such a drawn out process?

Well, the last time I was trying to have the ingredients for the nuggets on hand like he asked, because I knew if he came home after work intent on cooking the nuggets and I had used up or frozen the chicken, he would have been frustrated with me,

And he's always stressed about money, so I was thinking it would be wasteful if we let the chicken go bad, especially if we let it go bad and went to eat out instead.

And he did say previously he wouldn't mind cooking dinner some nights. He's always watching cooking videos on YouTube and collecting recipes he wants to try.

But I know the countertops were a mess, and the dishes needed doing, and if I didn't do the dishes soon, I'd have to do them after I got the child to bed, and I'm always too tired to do it afterwards, and then another day would pass where they weren't done and that would make him more upset with me, so I was thinking about how to solve all of that as well

And when he'd asked "What are we doing about dinner?" I could tell he was already starting to be pissed off at me, because of his tone and the aggressive way he was using the faucet as he leaned over the sink to rinse out his shaker cup...

We had been going out to eat a lot, and not getting out til pretty late, and then our daughter acts like a lunatic because she's tired, and dinner becomes thoroughly unenjoyable. So I feel like that was going through his head.

So then that all comes out in my response... "Well, what do you want to do? We have that chicken and pickles in the fridge that's going to go bad. I could clear off the counter and you could cook the nuggets you wanted to make, and I'll work on the dishes. Or I could clear off the counter and make something else with the chicken, and either do the dishes afterwards or some in between tasks..."

And then came the "Why am I expected to work all day and come home and have to cook?"

Followed by me trying to explain that that's not what I said or meant, and still trying to figure out what it is he wants to do about dinner and why he seems to be getting angrier with me

And then came the doubling down with "Well that sure sounds like what you meant" Which is where my trigger started, of course, and I could physically feel that coming out in my expression with my eyes widening and whatnot

And then I try to explain again that I don't expect him to come home and cook, I asked if he wanted to cook, because he had mentioned not minding cooking and asked for the ingredients which were about to go bad, BUT if not, I could certainly do it...

Then he's like "I said I wouldn't mind cooking if the countertops were clear"

And I start saying "I said I would clear the countertops..." But now he doesn't like my frustrated tone or my "crazy eyes," and he demands an apology

And then I snapped "An apology for what?!" And then I was full blown triggered, because honestly what the fuck. I was trying to be considerate and make him happy and I just felt like he was being slippery and avoiding the question, and I tried explaining why I was frustrated...

And then. AND THEN... He asked if I had been taking my meds. And then I lost my everloving mind at him, because that's a clear insinuation that I'm being crazy, right?

And like I'm absolutely not proud of what followed, and I apologized for it eventually, but there was a lot of screaming and name calling and crying and cursing that ensued. I did try to take a break before it reached that point, but I didn't take as much time as I really needed to sit and sob in the bathroom, because I realized I still needed to get dinner on the table, and that mfer refused to leave the kitchen when I asked him to give me space so I could cook.

It suffices to say that the chicken was boiled to belligerence and maliciously under seasoned. He didn't even come to the table to eat after all that.

He claims he had no idea why I was spazzing out on him.

Good lord, you two have an amazingly dysfunctional relationship. Not that I'm an expert, btw, on functional relationships.

And then. AND THEN... He asked if I had been taking my meds. And then I lost my everloving mind at him, because that's a clear insinuation that I'm being crazy, right?

Ouch. That was uncalled for and a low blow. Consciously or subconsciously, he belied a tremendous amount of disdain.

Here's an important question. Did he do and say things like this before d-day or is this new?

Well, if you read GottheMorbs carefully, you will see her husband has done worse than that: one time saying something like "maybe your stepfather was right about you". On the other hand, seeing the kinds of things GottheMorbs has said to BPs here when angered, while posting as Ghostie or TreadingWater, maybe they have both said cruel things.

But GottheMOrbs, if your original issue you articulated is "how do I keep mindful of remorse in the face of BHs provocations"? It occurs to me that your own frame articulated here and elsewhere is "It is paramount that I protect my sweet and fragile and innocent inner child at all times". Maybe you should view your husband the same way: he has a sweet and fragile and innocent that needs a hug and needs protection as well. And you KNOW he himself does a poor job of protecting that inner child.

And how do you keep it in mind that his inner child is in need of protecting as well? When you have your own wounded inner child, AND a real world child that deserves more, AND other responsibilities? Not easy. Most people run to a fantasy land, which I guess you learned the hard way. At least it wasn't hard drugs.

Here's an idea. Have you written out a timeline of the affair(s) for him? written timelines are fundamental advice here, for much the same reason you have resorted to recording your arguments: manipulation can be spotted, minimization exposed, hidden details made available for later reference. But also, it forces the WP to account with no self-delusion, to come to grips with their offense.

Did I cater to my BH? Did I constantly give him the benefit of the doubt? Did I overlook hurtful things? Did I absorb his anger without building a case against him? Did I stop counting the cost of my own comfort? Did I sit in the room while he cried or screamed, without checking my watch, correcting his phrasing, or pulling up a dictionary definition to prove he was deflecting? Did I look at his frantic, messy, breaking heart and realize that I caused that chaos, instead of labeling his survival mode as abuse?

​You better believe I did. Why? Because that is what a remorseful WS does when they finally drop the ego and fully understand the devastation they caused.

​Are our BSs going to hit below the belt? Be ugly, and lash out in pain? Could it look and feel like abuse? Yeah, and no one is saying it doesn't fucking suck because it does. R isn't easy, trauma isn’t pretty, and it is a brutal exhausting process.

​But there is a massive difference between a spouse lashing out from a place of trauma (which you REFUSE to consider), and a spouse being systematically abusive.

​And right now, you are both playing a part in a total shit show. He's the one acting out in devastation and you are acting out maliciously. It is time to be brave and stop it.

​Not with spreadsheets,
transactional ROI, or study guides. It only stops when you truly get it. And right now? You just don’t. The proof is littered across these pages.

Not once in your posts have I seen genuine concern for him. Not once have you deeply focused on his pain, his struggles, or his trauma. You only mention him to build a case against him.

​I have a strong suspicion that if you actually let the reality of his pain break through your armor, your life would change for the better.

Just look at the kitchen incident. What do you think would have happened if, the moment you saw his frustration with the faucet, you stopped the logistics, dropped your ego, and simply asked, 'Hey, is something wrong? What can I do to help?'

​Sure, you might have gotten a prickly defensive reaction at first. But if you had stayed calm, absorbed it, and helped him through it, you eventually would have given him a profound sigh of relief. He would have seen a safe place to land. Consistent, ego-free, safe actions are the only way to guide his nervous system out of hyper-vigilance.

​You are really good at glossing over his humanity. You are treating a bleeding man like a bad roommate with poor communication skills. You are so busy analyzing the mechanics of how he is drowning that you are completely missing the fact that he is underwater.

He is yelling about chicken nuggets and countertops because those are the only safe containers he has left to hold the massive, unmanageable terror of what you did to him.

Have you ever thought about that?

From one wayward to another, drop the playbook. Stop trying to manage his trauma and just start looking at your hurting husband. Until you choose connection over being whatever this is, you are going to keep running into this exact same wall.

Unhinged,

I'm trying to sort that out. I don't think it was this bad prior to DDay, but it also didn't suddenly get worse after DDay (Though I recognize these things aren't linear, and maybe it is like 5bluedrops said, where he's just now starting to reject blame for the infidelity?)

Cantbemeeither,

Somebody's got to protect mine and BH's inner children, because they sure af weren't protected in our actual childhoods... I'm trying to keep that in mind when I encounter his defensiveness and be patient, and what you wrote is a good reminder of that.

I almost would have preferred it if I had turned to hard drugs instead of infidelity, tbh.

Yes, we did a written timeline to the best of my ability to remember.

Foreverlabelled,

Was your BH actually being psychologically abusive, or was he just doing normal-BS-expressing-pain-things? Genuinely asking and not assuming anything or attempting to minimize anything you might have gone through. But there is a difference.

Like I said before, I can handle it just fine if he says things that (generally would be) hurtful (to most people. I don't think I've actually taken offense to any insults he's sent my way, because I understood them. It took me an emarrassingly long while to understand the new lack of trust and stop being offended by it, but i got there eventually. I totally get it now, and it begets reassurance rather than offense from me.) I can handle when he expresses anger or pain and be there with him, whether that's a very loud, physical expressiom, crying, just talking about it, etc, for however long he needs to. I find myself almost begging him to talk to me about it instead of stuffing it down. I can handle all the things I gotta do for transparency, accounability, and reassurance.

I cannot-- and refuse to-- deal with the gaslighting, manipulation, and denial of communication. I am not "refusing to consider" that this may be stemming from trauma. I'm sure it is-- and not just infidelity trauma. What I am saying is that even if it is, its still abusive, and it needs to stop, not have excuses made for it. I've expressed that it's taking so much emotional bandwidth from me that my ability to empathize is being impacted. I'm trying to focus on my response to it, and what's within my control here. But you have to understand, it's really fucking difficult to trust and intimately connect with someone who's hurting you this badly. I'm fighting against detaching from the source of pain.

I spoke to him last night about what kind of response he was looking for prior to the dinner argument. He said that he was just upset it was late, and that even if one of us cooked or departed for a restaurant right away, he didnt think we would be getting the child fed and to bed on time. Basically, no matter what I could have said in that moment, he was still going to be mad at me. I told him he could have just told me that. Then he was like, "where is this coming from? can we not just shower and have a little sex and go to bed?" So that was the end of that conversation, I guess. (No sex was had after that, btw. The mood was D-E-D dead.)

I cannot-- and refuse to-- deal with the gaslighting, manipulation, and denial of communication. I am not "refusing to consider" that this may be stemming from trauma. I'm sure it is-- and not just infidelity trauma.

Why stay? What's keeping you from pulling the plug? (Serious questions.)

You keep doing the same stuff here, and you report doing the same stuff at home. How do you expect to get different results?

What are you willing to change about yourself? That's within your power. Changing your H is not.

You reject feedback. You reject suggestions. How is SI helping? What do you want from SI?

Again, I'm very sorry you're in pain. I think you can get out of pain, but it takes work from you.

I think a good IC can help you more than an Internet forum can. IMO, one can heal from abuse with the lack of human contact inherent in anonymous communications.

ETA: Both IC and a 'net forum can help. They provide different support.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:38 PM, Saturday, May 23rd]

So, you have learned from this interaction... what?

You learned that a bid for affection or repair after a disagreement, even the smallest bid, will elicit a positive response from your husband. Quite a positive response actually. You are now secure knowing he wants intimacy and repair, and you feel loved again. Now you know he's not cheating, I guess?

You respond by denying his request for increased intimacy (not talking about the sex by the way) because you are now feeling secure and not in the mood to repair further. You can get back to worrying about how he's treating you. You don't feel you had any part in how the conversation/quarrel went down, and you don't feel you have to take any responsibility for how the conversation went.

You've learned a new technique to help you manage him though.

This seems so dang unhealthy. I don't know how anyone here can help you with advice.

Morbs, I think your extreme sensitivity to abusive behavior is a major stumbling block for you (and him). Please understand, that's not a condemnation, it's not a judgment. It's an observation based upon what you've shared and how you've interacted with this community. It's not wrong in the sense that you're somehow faulty in this regard. The shit you experienced was real, traumatic, and your normal human brain (as "normal" as human brains can be), wired itself accordingly.

There were moments in the first couple of years after d-day in which I absolutely ripped my exww to emotional shreds. That's not the man I was and never wanted (or want) to be. It was rage. Pure, unadulterated, unfiltered, raw fucking rage. That came from pain, from anguish, fear and confusion. That came from being unhinged.

I've spent considerable time thinking about those moments. I've apologized to her, often, because I still care about her.

Was it abuse? Well, it's hard to imagine that being on the receiving end of that rage didn't hurt like hell. In fact, I know it did.

Snippy comments, disdainful behavior, low blows... all of it.

I cannot recall my ex ever suggesting or accusing me of being abusive. She did, however, let me know how much it hurt.

None of this is to say that your husband doesn't have abusive tendencies. It's why I suggested that you read up on "Repetition Compulsion." It's entirely possible that you subconsciously chose to marry a man who was similar to your step-father. This concept isn't new, it isn't junk science or pop-culture self-help garbage. It's well researched, peer-reviewed psychology.

Whatever the case may be, it seems rather clear to me that your tendency to always protect yourself is impeding your ability to truly see the damage you caused. And a part of me wonders if you're simply terrified to admit to yourself that you could have possibly been so cruel.

Sisoon,

Why stay? What's keeping you from pulling the plug? (Serious questions.)

Two reasons: one, I believe he can/might/is willing to stop with the manipulation tactics because he loves[noun] me, and two, because the last time I tried to detach emotionally from him, I was unable to do it. It hurt too much. I wasn't functional at all.

You keep doing the same stuff here, and you report doing the same stuff at home. How do you expect to get different results?

I don't know what you mean by this.

What are you willing to change about yourself? That's within your power. Changing your H is not.

I'm working on changing my emotional reaction to the manipulation tactics, and trying to be more patient with him.

You reject feedback. You reject suggestions.

I reject feedback and suggestions that seem not to apply to me, or that come from people who demonstrate they don't understand my words/situation, or who demonstrate that they have sinister ulterior motives (I had "**cough cough [a certain username]**" typed out but I'm trying to avoid naming/flaming/shaming)

How is SI helping? What do you want from SI?

It helps me to understand the betrayed perspective and to find direction. It also seems to be working as a form of exposure therapy.

Again, I'm very sorry you're in pain. I think you can get out of pain, but it takes work from you.

Thanks

I think a good IC can help you more than an Internet forum can. IMO, one can heal from abuse with the lack of human contact inherent in anonymous communications.

I'm seeing one. Took forever to find her, but she's really great.

Kitchendepth,

You learned that a bid for affection or repair after a disagreement, even the smallest bid, will elicit a positive response from your husband. Quite a positive response actually. You are now secure knowing he wants intimacy and repair, and you feel loved again. Now you know he's not cheating, I guess?

Uh, that's certainly an interesting interpretation of what happened. My experience of it was that he was declining the bid for repair and avoiding the conversation entirely, and that took us out of the mood for intimacy. It did not make me feel good.

We are DEFINITELY not on the same page here, you and I. Probably not even on the same book

Been following this thread.

Morbs...

Perfectionism. You are soaked in it and sick with it. It is an armor defending you against vulnerability that is so. very. heavy.

I'm not going to go through your posts sign by sign pointing it out. I would just like to invite you to start a deep dive on vulnerability because until you can embrace it, it's very unlikely things will change for you.

I believe this because I was very much like you. Litigating what I actually meant, how BS was misinterpreting things, how what he remembered isn't what happened because it wasn't matching up with my lived experience, even wondering if he was gaslighting me, etc. Just a lot of overlap with what you're describing. If I had stayed with that strategy, we would not be reconciled now.

"I thought it was just me but it's not"
"The Gifts of Imperfection"

Both by Brene Brown. These were game changers for me. I hope they can be for you. You might be able to get away with just the second one, because it builds on, extends and refines the material in the first one, but that's the order I read them. GAME CHANGERS.

When you have a big big brain, it's actually pretty challenging to use that big big brain to rewire itself. I'm smart. Like, rocket scientist smart. But I could not use the thinking that got me to where I was to help me get me to a new place, one where I could help BS heal and, frankly, heal myself from past trauma. That took a big reframe and those books are where it started. I suspect that you have been banging your big big brain against that same wall.

Good luck. I hope you figure it out because I think your efforts to reconcile depend on it.
Regardless of if you are able to reconcile, if you do this work it will dramatically improve your relationship with everyone you ever interact with for the rest of your life. It is 1000% worth it. That's a bold claim, but that was my experience and I hope it can be yours too.

Sending courage (you will need it) from this still EvolvingSoul.

To answer your question directly, Yes. In the aftermath of my betrayal, my husband was abusive at times. Sometimes even disgustingly so.

​However, I chose to see it differently. Don't get me wrong I had a line, but I chose to look past the toxic behavior and see a human being whose soul had been completely shattered by the person who was supposed to protect it.

​I didn’t excuse the behavior, but I accepted that I was the one who drove his nervous system into that violent, chaotic, and for him first and foremost terrifying survival mode. I understood that you cannot set a man’s house on fire and then demand he use perfect survival skills while he's trying to breathe through the smoke.

​There is a massive difference between a malicious abuser who wants control, and a shattered human being who is thrashing in pain. I chose to accept it because of three things.

​I understood the context. Real abuse is about power and domination. My BHs ugliness in the aftermath wasn't an attempt to control me, it was the frantic, agonizing panic of a person whose reality had been leveled. His lashing out was just the sound of a soul shattering.

​I accepted my role as the catalyst. I didn't excuse his actions, but I had the maturity to realize his nervous system wouldn't be in that terrifying survival mode if I hadn't put it there. The fallout of betrayal is inherently messy, and I caused the mess.

​I chose healing over my own ego. I realized that if I demanded he treat me with perfect politeness and respect while his heart was actively bleeding out, the marriage would die. I had to choose to be the safe harbor he needed to finally come down from that ledge.

You say you can handle his anger, but your own stories contradict you. He didn't gaslight you in the kitchen. He didn't systematically manipulate you. He walked in exhausted and used a frustrated tone. And because he didn't communicate with the perfect elegance of a therapist, you flagged his mechanics and then you actually escalated the situation by screaming, cursing, and maliciously ruining dinner. You are holding him to a standard of flawless emotional regulation that you aren't even meeting yourself.

Look at what you wrote

It's really fucking difficult to trust and intimately connect with someone who's hurting you this badly. I'm fighting against detaching.

Read that sentence again, but read it from his perspective. Can you even sit with that without saying but what about me?

You hurt him worse than anyone else on this earth ever could, yet you are the one complaining about detaching because he was passive aggressive about chicken nuggets. You are demanding that he make the relationship feel safe for you before you will step down from your tower and hold space for him.

You are using terms like "emotional bandwidth" to stay safely insulated from the raw agony of what you did to this man. You have built a perfect logical fortress where you get to be the blameless manager and he is just a broken variable you have to control.

Taking his trauma into consideration and simply saying "I'm sure it is" are not the same thing.

If you were actually taking his trauma into consideration, it would have changed your entire posture in that kitchen. When he aggressively rinsed that cup, you wouldn't have seen an adversary violating your rules. You would have seen a drowning man. Your instinct wouldn't have been to build a defensive wall to protect your own ego, it would have been to drop your guard, step into the room as a safe partner, and help him lower his sails.

Instead, you weaponized his delivery to dodge his pain. You graded his mechanics like a judge, decided he didn't meet your standards, and then burned the whole night down to protect your own pride.

When you were posting as Ghostie and Treading Water, some of the things were, I thought, unforgivable. Attacking BP for being BPs, and threatening to somehow get this forum shut down.

However, when you came back, I thought I might have some good advice, so I engaged as usefully to you as I could, twice now, and guess what, you were gracious and appreciative both times.

So I don't think it is fair to label you as someone who is here for no good reason. I think as long as everyone keeps talking, that it to the good.

EvolvingSoul,

I'lll check those books out. Thanks.

foreverlabeled,

To answer your question directly, Yes. In the aftermath of my betrayal, my husband was abusive at times. Sometimes even disgustingly so.

I'm sorry that happened to you. If we had been in conversation at that time, I would have told you that you don't deserve that, no matter what you did previously, and you don't have to tolerate it. I hope nobody told you "that's not happening" or basically to shut up, be grateful, and take it, because you wouldn't have deserved that either.

Don't get me wrong I had a line

Good. I am drawing a line too. Manipulation, gaslighting, and any other form of abuse will no longer be tolerated, no matter where it's coming from. There are behaviors that are simply not acceptable, no matter what kind of pain the person is going through.

​I didn’t excuse the behavior,

**proceeds to then make excuses for the behavior**

​

There is a massive difference between a malicious abuser who wants control, and a shattered human being who is thrashing in pain.

I am still evaluating whether or not my husband falls into both categories simultaneously. There is a possibility that he is aware of the manipulation and abuse and is consciously choosing to continue it, even while knowing about my history with such things. I don't think that's the case, but I'm keeping an eye out for signs of it, just in case. I cannot be with someone who does it intentionally, full stop. I can be with someone if they're doing it unintentionally, if and only if they are willing and able to stop doing it. Those are my boundaries. I don't care what you think about them.

I realized that if I demanded he treat me with perfect politeness and respect while his heart was actively bleeding out, the marriage would die. I had to choose to be the safe harbor he needed to finally come down from that ledge.

I am not asking for my BH to treat me with "perfect politeness and respect" while he is healing. I say again: I can listen to him express his pain and anger just fine, and I am actively encouraging it. I expect him to refrain from gaslighting and manipulation tactics. I still feel like you are minimizing what he's doing, imagining normal BS reactions, and blurring the difference between those things.

You say you can handle his anger, but your own stories contradict you

They don't. Manipulation tactics that trigger me and send me into psycho mode are, again, different from normal BS expressions of anger. I have handled name calling and him verbally telling me how angry he was. I have handled him going outside, screaming, and smashing things up (He got several insect stings/bites the one day he went out into the sticks and started fucking up a tree. When he was all finished, we went into the bathroom together, and while he was still seething and calming down, I apologized to him and tended to the stings/bites.) I have handled him being generally cold and shirking my touch as a result of the anger. Those are normal and acceptable behaviors. Those are not underhanded, unfair, sinister ways to unbalance me, erode trust in myself, disrupt communication, and maintain a power dynamic. Those are not manipulation and abuse.

He didn't gaslight you in the kitchen. He didn't systematically manipulate you.

False. He misconstrued what I said, doubled down on the misconstruction, shifted the conversation from figuring out dinner to an argument about the conversation itself, and then when I tried to explain why that was frustrating me, he flipped it around on me and made me seem like I was the unreasonable one in that situation by calling out my "crazy eyes" and asking if I took my meds (which is gaslighting: "I know what you meant better than you do, because you are not a reliable narrator of your own thoughts. I'm not behaving in a way that reasonably induces frustration; you're just crazy. Now apologize.")

He could have just answered my question, which was basically, "Do you want to cook or should I?" But he didn't, because he walked in the kitchen already upset with me as he thought it was late, and instead of just communicating that to me, he decided that whatever my response to "What are we doing about dinner?" was going to be wrong, no matter how considerate I was trying to be of literally all the things I could think of that might be causing his upset or might cause him future upset.

He could have came in and just said, "I'm frustrated because dinner isn't ready yet and I don't think we're going to get our daughter to bed on time." (I don't think that requires "the perfect elegance of a therapist.") And then I would have apologized and worked with him to figure out a system for making sure dinner is figured out and ready earlier, and I would have hurried up and gotten dinner on the table that night without a fuss. But no. He commenced the manipulation tactics instead.

You are holding him to a standard of flawless emotional regulation

he was passive aggressive about chicken nuggets. You are demanding that he make the relationship feel safe for you before you will step down from your tower and hold space for him.

I don't understand why you keep misrepresenting and exaggerating my expectations, while downplaying what he's doing. Again, I don't expect "flawless emotional regulation." I expect normal expression of his feelings and to simply not engage in psychological abuse. He's not just being "passive aggressive."

I also don't understand why you're insisting that I'm not "holding space" for him. I felt really exhausted going into my most recent work trip, but I think I still did the things I was supposed to. I don't know how many times I can say that I'm practically begging him to talk to me about his feelings and the affair. When he does, I listen, apologize, and empathize. I'm actively working on anticipating and ceasing the behaviors he finds triggering. I've been honest and transparent, and done my best to be reassuring. I'm learning ways to get better at it. I'm reading books and posts on here. I'm going to therapy and doing things like talking to people like you to try and work on my own problems, including the extreme emotional reaction to the manipulation techniques. I've done or I am doing all the things that are recommended on SI. I don't know what you're expecting. I'll tell you that I'm not going to sit here and only talk about his pain, because a) I don't speak for him, and b) that's not helping anyone. There are plenty of BS talking about their own pain, if that's what you're looking to read.

I feel like you're trying to shove me into a box of WS that I don't fit in, and you're giving me almost pre-programmed responses and getting mad when I'm like, "Hey, that doesn't really make sense for me. Here's more info about my situation specifically." It's really strange.

You are using terms like "emotional bandwidth" to stay safely insulated from the raw agony of what you did to this man. You have built a perfect logical fortress where you get to be the blameless manager and he is just a broken variable you have to control.

Emotional bandwidth is just an expression describing one's capacity for emotional regulation and empathy for others. Everyone has limited emotional bandwidth. This is how Google's AI describes it:

Emotional bandwidth is your nervous system’s capacity to process sensory and emotional inputs, remain regulated under pressure, and recover from stress. Think of it like an internal Wi-Fi signal or a smartphone battery: every decision, conversation, and stressor drains your available "data."

I was expressing to you that I am running out of the emotional bandwidth needed for proper remorse, because I'm dealing with this psychological abuse in addition to regular life stressors. I want to support my BH's healing, I'm just finding myself exhausted sometimes from everything else. I think that's probably normal for a human being, honestly. I'm not trying to avoid his feelings or accountability for my infidelity, nor am I trying to control him. You keep putting a distorted spin on things.

If you were actually taking his trauma into consideration, it would have changed your entire posture in that kitchen. When he aggressively rinsed that cup, you wouldn't have seen an adversary violating your rules. You would have seen a drowning man. Your instinct wouldn't have been to build a defensive wall to protect your own ego, it would have been to drop your guard, step into the room as a safe partner, and help him lower his sails.

What "rules??" I didn't see an "adversary." I saw my husband was upset about something and I instantly started trying to figure out what it was and how to make it better, while answering the question he immediately asked me. Like I said, I was trying to figure out how to save us money by not wasting the chicken, whether he wanted to cook the meal he had previously expressed a desire to cook or if he wanted me to cook, how to get the countertops clear and accessible, and when I could squeeze in the dishes before our daughter's bedtime. I was confused when he presented what I said as "expecting him to come home and cook," when that wasn't what I said or meant. I tried multiple times to explain myself when he doubled down on the misconstruction. I guess you could say I got "defensive" when he said something about my "crazy eyes" and tone, as after that I was trying to explain my frustration. And l did lose my shit when he further insinuated I was being crazy with the meds comment. But that was in response to the manipulation tactics and gaslighting. It wasn't like he walked into the kitchen and I just started out with defensiveness to "protect my ego" because he was upset about something.

Instead, you weaponized his delivery to dodge his pain. You graded his mechanics like a judge, decided he didn't meet your standards, and then burned the whole night down to protect your own pride.

Again, this is such a bizarre spin you're putting on it. And I bet you're going to insist that it's an accurate interpretation on what happened and what was going on with me, even though you're not me and you weren't there, because I'm just a defensive, exhausting, argumentative WS who only cares about presenting herself well and "winning," right? And obviously you can't be biased and seeing things through a lens of pain after being recently betrayed, no ma'am...

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:00 AM, Sunday, May 24th]

You are right about one thing, I am looking at this through the lens of pain. But it’s a lens that gives me clarity, not blindness. And its a hard earned clarity that only comes from betraying another to their very core. So horrifically that I had to watch the person I loved more than life itself transform into a stranger thrashing in a hell I built for him, a clarity born from true remorse

​I’m not going to sit here and litigate the dictionary definitions of gaslighting with you, nor am I going to debate Google AI's description of emotional bandwidth. The fact that you are pulling up search engine definitions in a discussion about your husband’s shattered soul proves every single thing I have been trying to tell you.

You are treating a relational homicide like a corporate contract dispute. You want to argue the mechanics so you don’t have to feel the horror. That is going to make your worst nightmare come true and you'll be up in your tower crying that you tried so hard and asking why did this happen? Good luck girly pop.

​There is a post in general that I just read that brought tears to my eyes (not because I can relate, truth is I cant... but because everything that BH said was something I understood through a lens of empathy, compassion, humility, and NEVER WANTING TO BE THAT PERSON AGAIN), and frankly, you should to read it.

You should bookmark it, copy it into your notes, and read it multiple times a week. Do not read it to analyze this poster’s communication mechanics. Do not read it to diagnose his manipulation or look for switchtracking.

​Read it to finally, truly understand the anatomy of the devastation you caused. Read it to see what it actually feels like to be the person drowning on the other side of your logical wall.

​Its Gemmy's letter to self part 2.

​

​That letter is what true remorse has to hold space for. It isn't a textbook checklist, it isn't an internet forum study guide, and it isn't AI (which is probably the ONLY thing telling you what you want to hear).

It is looking at that exact level of heartbreak and realizing you handed your husband a shit sandwich he has to swallow every single day.

​Step down from your tower, and start reading those words until you can finally see your husband's face in every single line.

​Did I already say good luck? You're gonna need it if you want your M.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 1:31 AM, Sunday, May 24th]