SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Good luck to you then.

It's okay for you to feel that way, as long as you are honest about it with your W so that she has all the relevant information when choosing whether to reconcile.

Thank you, GotTheMorbs. This is my largest problem with this thread and in general, the treatment of your BS. The fact is that you are unwilling to let your wife {Edit: know} what you feel and where you stand on ALL of these issues. You are handicapping her and taking away her agency. That's awful.

If you are also relying on your wife's feelings about her religion and using that to your advantage, that is equally deplorable. It's even more so if you claim to follow the same faith. You claim to fully understand and follow it faithfully, and then you claim it's faulty or insufficient to seek help from those religious leaders. Both of those things can't be true.

I understand what hikingout has said about there may be a cultural difference. I've sensed that your writing style varies in extremes. For example, you claim to not like profanity. Then you have a post with a bunch of profanity. Maybe you are in the mid-Atlantic US but from another culture. Anyway, this may be why you have an attachment and high empathy for your friend but not for your wife. It seems you can sincerely empathize with others. It's a great trait. I simply don't understand how you can shut yourself off to empathy for your wife.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 11:04 PM, Wednesday, October 14th]

i’m just resistant to crap. I have been that way my whole life. I know it when I smell it.

And I know it too.

There's a reason you won't go to a tribunal in the church. That means you are seeking an annulment. You don't want an annulment. You don't want a divorce. You want to control your wife and get her to comply to your desires.

It's also why you won't just go and talk to a priest. You don't want to hear what they will tell you. That's why you won't talk to your wife.

You know it, and I do too.

You’re funny!

You have some of the most wise, kind, experienced minds on the internet on the topic of infidelity trying to give you free advice, and you are being dismissive and arrogant. 10 of you come across this site every year. You are anything but "unconventional".

You have some of the most wise, kind, experienced minds on the internet on the topic of infidelity trying to give you free advice, and you are being dismissive and arrogant. 10 of you come across this site every year. You are anything but "unconventional".

This

ᵃⁿᵈ ᵃˡˡ ¹⁰ ᵒᶠ ᵗʰᵉᵐ ᵍᵉᵗ ᵈʳⁱᵛᵉⁿ ᵃʷᵃʸ...

Unconventional,

I had originally supported you in revealing the SA to your therapist. I guess I was blinded and misunderstanding where you were really at. With the rest of comments your have made, the picture is a bit clearer to me now.

what you folks are selling… I ain’t buying.

when you have a new tune to sing, let me know.

I did not have any kind of "affair", and my wife does bear a share of guilt for my infidelity. And she absolutely does need to work on her CSA history. and the sacrifice I am making right now in service to my M speaks for itself and favorably—whether or not you’re here to listen!

My new song to sing is this...you are acting completely contrary to what your faith calls you to do. You are called to "love your wife". All I am seeing now is you attempting to present a very marginal..."mechanical compliance" approach to your marriage.

You are not using your volition to love your wife with your heart. You have heavily invested thought and emotion for this "friend". And although she may be a kind person, worthy of love, etc.....she is not the one you promised to love. Your wife is. That is the purpose of making a decision to love...you are supposed to purpose in your heart to willfully forgo other opportunities to invest your heart into another.

So let's say in theory you divorce and go and marry this OW. What will keep you with her in the long run? You think she will not have her issues? You think life will not get mundane and troublesome with her? It most certainly will. I dare say you have built up some fantasy of this women that is perpetuating your hardness of heart against your wife. It is a fools errand.

If you would have invested in your wife on an emotional and volitional level as you did with the OW, I suspect you would not be here today. If you had chosen to mark the delightful and attractive aspects of your wife that are undoubtedly there....you would not be here today.

Your cumulative answers have culminated into such a displayed disposition...that I have to admit...I have had it cross my mind that the whole thing is fake, and is some sort of rage bait. But I trust that is not the case.

So friend, I will say this confidently. You will stand before the King or Kings one day and answer for how you treat his daughter. He has given your wife to you...not the OW. Your fawning over the OW must stop. Soften your heart toward your wife. Provide a safe place for her. Choose her...you promised you would. Keep your promise. Rekindle the value you placed in her when you said "I do". That value is still there. You have simply wandered and forgotten.

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: "

Ephesians 5:25-29 KJV

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 2:12 AM, Thursday, October 15th]

ᵃⁿᵈ ᵃˡˡ ¹⁰ ᵒᶠ ᵗʰᵉᵐ ᵍᵉᵗ ᵈʳⁱᵛᵉⁿ ᵃʷᵃʸ...

Morbs, you literally just gave this guy the "good luck to you then".

If naming and confronting unrepentant wayward bullshit from people who think they are too clever or unique for wisdom drives them away, then maybe they should come back once they have an open ear.

I mean, it's one thing for the WS to be like "I'm not buying the bullshit--" cuz like, I think that's a clear indicator we've reached a point where they're not ready to hear us, but like, to unload all the frustration we've been feeling on them one after another afterwards ? I don't think that's conducive to our intent and purposes. I remember I almost got driven out too; fortunately I was just too damn stubborn to leave 😅

And certainly there are some that leave of their own volition because they genuinely do not want to change.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:59 AM, Thursday, October 15th]

Oh, I'm not leaving. I'm just not drinking the Kool-Aide and I'm cutting back on my time commitment here.

I'm still going to honor all of my commitments to Morbs.

But I'm not here seeking to be persuaded. On the contrary, I'm here to do some persuading. You're all wrong.

"Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me, but deep down I know that's not true. Some smaller countries are neutral." Robert Orben

You've not bad people. You've just got the whole... "groupthink" thing going on. You need a sensible outsider to call you out on having swallowed the blue pill. (Not Viagra. That was a Matrix movie franchise reference I just made.)

There is not one--and only one--cookie-cutter approach to addressing all infidelity and I am going to show that. It's just gonna take some time to get there because this is life in the prospective.

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach..." Cpt. "Big" Bill to "Luke" Jackson

I did shuffle on over to an AskAPriest website. I have no idea if I actually spoke with a real priest or an AI LLM pretending to be collared. But the "priest" did claim--on questioning--to be an actual priest and said I am justified in questioning whether my M is valid, given my W's statement. He also said I need to consult with a Diocesan tribunal. So... I'll try to do that today. Not sure if I'll reach anyone today, but I have a tiny bit of time here.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 12:43 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

If you do stay, do you think you'll attempt to meaningfully engage with the reasoning behind the basic principles we've adopted as standard practice here? Challenging those principles is welcome, but dismissing them as some kind of Big Reconciliation brainwashing campaign doesn't address the reasons we've given for why we're recommending them.

This site is not immune to criticism-- and trust me, I have criticized it a lot. I have said that sometimes trying to "take what's useful and leave the rest" feels like "looking for a needle in a shitstack." But really, there is such valuable perspective and advice to be found here from people who are happily reconciled, or further along in their recovery journeys, and even those whose marriages ended. Sometimes that advice genuinely doesn't make sense for us or for our situations, but sometimes it's because we just don't like what it means we should do.

You sat with some of it earlier and recognized the immediate urge to exculpate yourself rather than seriously consider whether your understanding of infidelity might be flawed. I thought that was a genuinely promising moment of introspection, and I hope you'll continue to approach the advice you receive with that same willingness to question your own conclusions.

I am invested in how your story plays out.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 12:49 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Morbs,

...do you think you'll attempt to meaningfully engage with the reasoning behind the basic principles we've adopted as standard practice here?

I read your posts more attentively than some. I find you... interesting. You're smart. You're articulate. You're also... a pretty novel voice. I think we'd agree we see the world through pretty different eyes. And it's my opinion that it's a good thing--a mature choice--to expose one's mind to differences respectfully.

I am not here to troll anyone, that's for sure. I have better things to do with my time than to troll people or even whole bulletin boards.

I'm willing to be criticized. I'm willing to be mocked and tuned-out. I'm willing to be unpopular. I'm willing to be judged. I'm willing to read bile against me. I can--and will--accommodate and accept feedback. That's... intellectually and morally healthy! (Echo chambers suck!) For instance, I really will tell my W before our MC session today that I disclosed her CSA to our MC--and I will (if my W affords me the opportunity) probe further into my W's marital needs so I can do a better job of servicing them. Those changes reflect the positive effects of remaining open to feedback.

However, if your question is: Am I here pliably to learn a roadmap to R and then follow it, lemming-like? My answer is: No--not any more. That's why I originally came here; I wanted to find someone who has done what I intend to do and follow that roadmap. I didn't find that... and that's disappointing--but not dissuading.

There's something to be said for an attitude of accepting some things that aren't proven empirically. I believe in God, for instance. Indeed, I believe in the usefulness of parachutes when jumping from airplanes despite contrary randomized controlled trial evidence! (Seriously: Google for "Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial"?) But, there are a bevy of fundamental precepts taught here--explicitly or implicitly--that are nonsense--and, no, I won't waste my time in weighing those any further (absent new evidence), nor will I shirk from identifying them for the crap they are.

There needs to be a burden of proof met--beyond tradition and blind faith--to ground the adoption of costly absolute platitudes like:

(1) Accepting 99% of the blame for an act of infidelity is inadequate/unmotivating justification for meaningful change (as if that's the same as projecting 99% of the blame for an act of infidelity onto someone else—or some kinda DARVO do-do);
(2) Treating the terms Emotional Affair & Disordered Friendship as categorically different constitutes a trivialization of wrongs;
(3) Former APs cannot possibly ever again be a meaningful part of a WS's life (because sincerity, awareness, personal growth, healing, safeguards, and redemption don't matter);
(4) All (not just many) WSs have a deep-seated internal flaw that must be uprooted or healed to establish safety for a BS;
(5) All (not just most) infidelity is inherently unjustifiable;
(6) Involuntary disclosure of spousal admissions of CSA is always (not merely often) wrong;
(7) BSs deserve absolute and perpetual deference on all M matters and cannot possibly ever hold unreasonable expectations;
(8) Any WS who doesn't accept the aforementioned principles is insincere and/or unprepared in seeking M / spousal healing.

If there's actual empirical evidence to substantiate any of those allegations, I'm willing to consider the evidence. I have seen none of that. ("This is what I believe/did/have seen others do/believe" is not evidence.)

My sense is that there's not actually

...reasoning behind the basic principles we've adopted as standard practice here

.

Those beliefs I've highlighted aren't reasoned at all--nor are they rationally defensible. They're just parroted teachings that some people find useful as guidance.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 3:26 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Just curious: what are your feelings on the metaphor of the Lord being our shepherd?

I won't waste my time in weighing those any further (absent new evidence), nor will I shirk from identifying them for the crap they are.

I guess we will see how not following the basic principles works out for you and your marriage. I'm sorry (mostly for your wife) that yours is the test subject.

(1) Accepting 99% of the blame for an act of infidelity is inadequate/unmotivating justification for meaningful change (as if that's the same as projecting 99% of the blame for an act of infidelity onto someone else);

Those obviously aren't "the same," but the point of taking 100% of accountability for your choices that resulted in your infidelity is the only way to ensure you develop 100% control over whether you're faithful (in any relationship) going forward. It's actually empowering to be able to look around and honest assess where you, yourself, went wrong or could have done differently, that way you can control the outcome better in the future... And your goal should be to come to find infidelity of any sort, of any degree of violation of faithfulness, to be so morally repugnant and such a betrayal to your own person, that you are not willing to engage in it, no matter the marital or external circumstances in which you find yourself.

(2) Treating the terms Emotional Affair & Disordered Friendship as categorically different constitutes a trivialization of wrongs;

Like I said, in and of itself, I don't think it matters what you call it. But you tend to use the softened labelling of your behavior in tandem with trying to rationalize why your wife shouldn't be so upset, and why she should trust you to resume contact with OW. Together those things amount to what we call "minimization" (though really I think a more accurate term would be "down playing") of the severity of the offense. And that's not good for marital healing or proper remorse.

Another question for you: How do you think you would see yourself differently if you labelled what happened an emotional affair?

(

3) Former APs cannot possibly ever again be a meaningful part of a WS's life (because sincerity, awareness, personal growth, healing, safeguards, and redemption don't matter);

Whether APs can remain in a WS's life in general is not the same as whether resuming contact is possible/prudent in your particular situation. If a BS was perfectly okay with that because trust had been adequately restored in the WS's ability to conduct themselves appropriately around the AP such that infidelity (neither of the heart nor the body) was extremely unlikely to happen again, the AP wasn't aware of the marital relationship and/or acted in a way that was respectful to the marriage and intends to remain respectful to the marriage, and the WS came to forgive themselves to such a degree that the AP didn't remind them of the worst version of themselves and all the pain they caused their BS...then yeah, I could see continued contact being okay. But that's not how your W feels, the OW seems to dissent to continued interactions, and I don't think holding onto the hope of resuming contact allows for you to be 110%, all-in for the reconciliation process.

The things you listed matter. We just don't think you're "there" yet the way you think you are. Even more than a year out, I find myself wondering if I might be "there" and then something resurfaces-- an old habit or mindset that ain't going down easy-- and I'm like, "Op. More work still to do!" But it's worthwhile work, and I do believe I am earning my H's trust back because he sees me doing it.

(4) All (not just many) WSs have a deep-seated internal flaw that must be uprooted or healed to establish safety for a BS;

Nobody is perfect, and just about everyone has issues... Some people's issues lead to infidelity. How did you allow yourself to hurt the one person you swore to love and protect, through good times and bad, for the rest of your life? It wasn't a lack of boundaries or awareness. You had those things. You ignored them. Why? This is also another reason why you should let go of any blame for your spouse; it can get in the way of your soul-searching because it's easy enough to use the marital conditions as a convenient "why." That's surface level shit. Go deeper than that.

(5) All (not just most) infidelity is inherently unjustifiable;

How can you be a safe partner if you believe infidelity is ever justifiable? What prevents you from doing it again? (Don't say boundaries and awareness. That didn't work the first go around.)

(6) Involuntary disclosure of spousal admissions of CSA is always (not merely often) wrong;

It wouldn't be wrong if, say, your wife had suicidal ideations or was doing something like self harm or abusing substances to deal with it. In that case it may be necessary to disclose it to a professional against her wishes so she can get life-saving treatment. But we haven't established those sorts of urgent conditions, nor anything that suggests your W wasn't capable of making that decision for herself. On the heals of the infidelity betrayal, now is a crucial time to be building trust, respecting her feelings, and being patient with her, rather than betraying her trust, disrespecting her feelings, and forcing things to happen on your timeline.

(7) BSs deserve absolute and perpetual deference on all M matters and cannot possibly ever hold unreasonable expectations;

Nobody said that.

The "roadmap" that you are looking for is found at the forums where they celebrate their broken vows, pine for their AP’s, and share tips on how to continue to betray.

Blaming your betrayed wife, having the goal of re-establishing contact over the objections (and anguish) of your wife, it’s all so absurdly self absorbed. And you talk like you’ve found some new enlightened path. You haven’t even started on the journey. Lots of Proverbs to describe your state of mind. Hint, use keyword "mockers".

Yes, there are group norms and beliefs in this community. No, we don’t need a still foggy betrayer to show us the light. Your arguments have all been heard and lively debated. Again, go find the forums that celebrate infidelity. I think you will see kindred spirits, and as a religious person I hope that jolts and revolts you.

I'm sorry (mostly for your wife) that yours is the test subject.

I agree. On both of the points in that quotation.

the point of taking 100% of accountability for your choices that resulted in your infidelity is... actually empowering to be able to look around and honest assess where you, yourself, went wrong or could have done differently

What I find empowering isn't a false sense of authority... but truth.

your goal should be to come to find infidelity of any sort, of any degree of violation of faithfulness, to be so morally repugnant and such a betrayal to your own person, that you are not willing to engage in it, no matter the marital or external circumstances in which you find yourself.

That was once my goal. That's child-like simplicity. It's a beautiful sentiment. I'm older now. Wiser. That's not my goal any more. We live in a world today in which international peace--in fact--is achieved through strength. My M has taught me that "it's the squeaky wheel gets the grease."

How do you think you would see yourself differently if you labelled what happened an emotional affair?

None, presently. Back before I had really processed what the term "Emotional Affair" actually conveys, I went to confession and sought forgiveness for my "emotional affair." I did my penance. God has wiped my soul clean from the sin of an EA, even if I had one. At this point, the difference between those terms resides solely in how my W may feel societally compelled to the grief. If she has to tell people that her H had a Disordered Friendship, she may incur less shame than if she tells people that her H had an Emotional Affair. Is that fair? Maybe not. But, I do think it's true. And I want her not to have to suffer more than I genuinely have brought upon her. Now... why do I say I feel no different over EA vs. DF when my W may feel different? Because I know--as a participant in the infidelity--that there was no hanky-panky no matter how the relationship is labelled.

One more thought for completeness's sake: Adultery = sex. That's a sin against God. A disordered friendship is a sin against a M.

But that's not how your W feels, the OW seems to dissent to continued interactions, and I don't think holding onto the hope of resuming contact allows for you to be 110%, all-in for the reconciliation process.

If my OW refuses an overture to try again for friendship when I feel the time is right and we are / I am ready... That'll be one of the biggest hurts of my life, but I will heal from that wound if my W stays beside me.

If my W perpetually refuses contact with my OW... maybe it's more representative overall if I just say: I dunno what happens then. I profoundly hope that won't happen. I know that much. I know I will always want to bring my OW back into my life in an emotionally close, but earnestly ordered way--with actual structure, not happenstance. I know the total distance between she and me will long hurt me badly. Frankly, I know I would be willing to keep the friendship in secret. I also know that--even in secret, I would never again let the friendship become disordered. I would limit it. I'd follow boundaries and safeguards. The only difference would be: In secret, the friendship wouldn't be afforded the additional safety layer of transparency that I otherwise would provide enthusiastically. However, in practice--and here's where I think you and I agree--I very much doubt that my OW would participate in a friendship with me without my W's blessing. And that's why I wrestle with this concept of: WTF do I do if it looks like my W will truly never let me re-friend my OW? Just being honest: I go back-and-forth. I could tell you where I stand today. But my stance might be different tomorrow.

What I know for now is: My M has a ways to go before I am maximally safe to re-friend my OW and certainly before my W would let me re-friend my OW. So... for now: NC it is. But God, help me when that day comes that we are strong enough to bear an honest friendship bwetween my OW and me if my W still won't let that happen!

I do believe I am earning my H's trust back because he sees me doing it.

Good for you! I mean that, BTW--with as much sincerity as I've ever said anything to anyone. It is the anguish I carry by abiding NC with my OW that I hope earns me a modicum of cred with my BS--drip by drip and day by day.

How did you allow yourself to hurt the one person you swore to love and protect, through good times and bad, for the rest of your life? It wasn't a lack of boundaries or awareness. You had those things. You ignored them. Why? This is also another reason why you should let go of any blame for your spouse; it can get in the way of your soul-searching because it's easy enough to use the marital conditions as a convenient "why." That's surface level shit. Go deeper than that.

That's why I will pursue IC. Well... that, and... I'm presently unsure whether I need to just drop my wish for loving sex with my W. I don't want that. But I also don't want divorce. Maybe... I just have to accept that the most loving sexual intimacy I'll ever get to enjoy is with a box of f---ing Kleenex?

How can you be a safe partner if you believe infidelity is ever justifiable? What prevents you from doing it again? (Don't say boundaries and awareness. That didn't work the first go around.)

Let me tell you what life has taught me, Morbs: I was 1000% faithful through more than a decade of literally no sex and little emotional support. When I finally found the self-respect and initiative to drag my W to see a MC with me to fix those issues, my W broke me by literally shrugging her shoulders when the MC asked her if she even wanted to stay M'ed to me.

Fast forward a couple of years... I committed infidelity. Am I prouda that? No. But, you know somethin'? A man gets thirsty in the desert. What happened because of my infidelity? Suddenly and finally, my W realized that, if she continued neglecting me, she could maybe even actually lose me. She woke up and decided she loved me after all. That's the only reason that--today--I have any hope left in the future of my M. So... what life has taught me is: infidelity is not a good act--but it actually can yield good consequences.

So... forgive me if I don't any longer share your absolute and unmitigated disgust over infidelity.... but.... I just... don't. You call that immorality... danger... cruelty. I call my new belief wisdom... salvation... hope.

But we haven't established those sorts of urgent conditions, nor anything that suggests your W wasn't capable of making that decision for herself.

What if--hypothetically--I'm protecting my W's confidentiality by not defending myself on exactly those terms?

(7) BSs deserve absolute and perpetual deference on all M matters and cannot possibly ever hold unreasonable expectations;

Nobody said that.

Nobody had to. It's a theme here.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 4:48 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

InkHulk - Thanks for your dribble!

You have disputed my last post, but here is what my points were based on:

1. You are literally posting on an infidelity board.
2. You openly admitted when you came here that you let your feelings for your friend get too far.
3. You have openly admitted that it was your friend who went NC with you, rather than you initiating it. In fact, you have written hundreds of words describing your obsession. You even used the word obsessed.
4. Your wife certainly believes you crossed a line.
5. You blame your wife for the affair, the one you are now saying you didn’t have. Whe in reality how you deal with your marriage, resentments, etc are all your responsibility. By not making more things in the open with your wife you co-signed your arrangement.
6. Now you want for your wife to deal with the feelings she has about this relationship, while forcing her to face her past issues at the same time.
7. You are still hiding things from her to be able to have better control over her and the outcome.

It feels far more like you are unwilling to take accountability for the ways you are not being open and honest but expecting it from the highest degree from her.

The ws forum is for people who have had affairs. If you are now even denying that, what in the world are you looking for here?

Also, we believe everyone’s path should be to happiness.

However, to repair a marriage when there has been a breach such as infidelity is the responsibility of the person who breach. You repair the betrayal then together you repair the rest of the marriage.

So we are looking at you to take the accountability and steps to create an emotionally safe situation. Given the way you respond here you need to work on that.