SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You have openly admitted that it was your friend who went NC with you, rather than you initiating it

True. Point being? Since I am honoring it, and all—and haven’t tried to contact her?

Your wife certainly believes you crossed a line.

So do I

You blame your wife for the affair, the one you are now saying you didn’t have.

I recommend you reread my stuff.

Now you want for your wife to deal with the feelings she has about this relationship, while forcing her to face her past issues at the same time.

Well, if she had dealt with her past issues in the past, we wouldn’t have to deal with both together.

You are still hiding things from her to be able to have better control over her and the outcome.

Guilty. (Of no crime by doing that.)

The ws forum is for people who have had affairs. If you are now even denying that, what in the world are you looking for here?

You have actually read the web address of this bulletin board, right?

Surviving INFIDELITY?

It’s not: Surviving AFFAIRS.

to repair a marriage when there has been a breach such as infidelity is the responsibility of the person who breach.

That’s not "a M of equals" thinking & it’s exactly the sort of messed up thought this place ought to reject, but doesn’t.

If your spouse is carrying in a bag of groceries and the bottom of the bag burst and the groceries spilled on the floor, and you’re standing there watching, would you not help your spouse?

[This message edited by Unconventional at 6:40 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

What I find empowering isn't a false sense of authority... but truth.

Well, the truth is that nobody forced you to commit infidelity, and nobody can force you to do it again going forward. You are 100% responsible for your own past, present, and future behavior, and you truthfully have full authority over it. That's what makes it possible for you to become a safe partner: your fidelity not being conditional on anything external.

That was once my goal. That's child-like simplicity. It's a beautiful sentiment. I'm older now. Wiser. That's not my goal any more. We live in a world today in which international peace--in fact--is achieved through strength. My M has taught me that "it's the squeaky wheel gets the grease."

I assure you, that it's perfectly possible. And you can be a squeaky wheel without using infidelity or the removal of autonomy to inject fear, distrust and further instability into your marriage. You want a marriage where your partner is taking care of your needs because they love you and want you to be happy, not because they're afraid of what happens if they don't. Love is patient; love is kind...

None, presently. Back before I had really processed what the term "Emotional Affair" actually conveys, I went to confession and sought forgiveness for my "emotional affair." I did my penance. God has wiped my soul clean from the sin of an EA, even if I had one.

You repented, not gave penance. Repentance is an internal change of heart and mind that turns away from sin, while penance is an external action or discipline performed to make amends or demonstrate sorrow. You have a long way to go before amends will be made with your W, even if you have forgiven yourself and are forgiven in the eyes of the Lord.

At this point, the difference between those terms resides solely in how my W may feel societally compelled to the grief. If she has to tell people that her H had a Disordered Friendship, she may incur less shame than if she tells people that her H had an Emotional Affair.

Neither of you has to tell anyone about this, if you don't want to. Many couples keep it between themselves. Again, what you call it doesn't matter; the behavior was the same and it hurt her the amount that it hurt her. A rose by any other name...

One more thought for completeness's sake: Adultery = sex. That's a sin against God. A disordered friendship is a sin against a M.

You don't have to have sex with anyone to commit infidelity and hurt your spouse. That's why we distinguish between EAs and PAs. I never had any kind of inappropriate physical contact with my AP. He's been perfectly fine with me sexting with others in the past. And yet that affair is still the most hurtful incident of infidelity in my husband's eyes, because I had feelings for someone who wasn't him. If we focus on what we didn't do instead of what we did, it's much easier for us to exonerate ourselves rather than sit with the guilt and the consequences of our actions. You can't fix a wrong if you don't fully acknowledge the entirety of the wrongness and its effects on those wronged.

If my OW refuses an overture to try again for friendship when I feel the time is right and we are / I am ready... That'll be one of the biggest hurts of my life, but I will heal from that wound if my W stays beside me.

I think she was very clear that she didn't want to interfere with your marriage or hurt your wife. If you can't respect your W's feelings about resuming contact, why can't you respect hers? Again, this hope of yours is interfering with your reconciliation process. I don't think OW would want that, do you?

I know I will always want to bring my OW back into my life

You can't know that.

Frankly, I know I would be willing to keep the friendship in secret.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM! IF YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT A SECRET FROM YOUR SPOUSE, IT'S NOT FAITHFUL BEHAVIOR! I fucking hate this term, but that can't be labelled anything other than "wayward thinking." You have to rid yourself of that willingness to deceive in order to become a safe partner. Deception and secrecy are the tools with which we violate our spouses' boundaries for our own gain.

WTF do I do if it looks like my W will truly never let me re-friend my OW?

Change your thinking from "My W is keeping me from this special friendship" to "I am voluntarily relinquishing this friendship, even though it's painful to do so, because I value my wife and my marriage more and I don't want to cause her distress." Or, if you don't value your W and your marriage more, end the marriage. Both spouses have to want to be married to each other for a marriage to work. If you guys can't agree on the conditions under which the marriage continues, then it doesn't need to continue.

It is the anguish I carry by abiding NC with my OW that I hope earns me a modicum of cred with my BS

That will most likely have the opposite effect, unfortunately. "It's so hard for me to let go of the person I betrayed you for!" = increased pain/distress/anxiety/distrust/anger, even/etc., not less.

That's why I will pursue IC. Well... that, and... I'm presently unsure whether I need to just drop my wish for loving sex with my W. I don't want that. But I also don't want divorce. Maybe... I just have to accept that the most loving sexual intimacy I'll ever get to enjoy is with a box of f---ing Kleenex?

IC is good. You don't need to relinquish any of your needs; they're perfectly valid. You do need to evaluate if those needs can be met in your marriage... with the understanding that, after infidelity, the needs of the WS often have to take a back seat to the BS's healing for a while. Not forever, but for now.

I was 1000% faithful through more than a decade of literally no sex and little emotional support.

So was my H to his XW until he started having an affair with me and then left her when she found out about it. Lot of good that did either of them.

When I finally found the self-respect and initiative to drag my W to see a MC with me to fix those issues, my W broke me by literally shrugging her shoulders when the MC asked her if she even wanted to stay M'ed to me.

Then you could have ended the marriage, or continued suffering faithfully. Self-respect means not only seeking to meet your needs, but also abiding by your moral values and doing the right thing, even when external conditions make it challenging. Betraying those values with infidelity is a betrayal of yourself as much as it is of your spouse.

he woke up and decided she loved me after all.

Have you heard of the terms "hysterical bonding" and "the pick me dance?"

So... what life has taught me is: infidelity is not a good act--but it actually can yield good consequences.

People can get cancer, beat it, and start taking much better care of their bodies afterwards, because they understand how valuable health and wellness are. The cancer isn't the thing that made them healthier, though.

So... forgive me if I don't any longer share your absolute and unmitigated disgust over infidelity.... but.... I just... don't. You call that immorality... danger... cruelty. I call my new belief wisdom... salvation... hope.

I call it "a lack of remorse," and we do not recommend BSes to reconcile with WSes who do not exhibit remorse. If you're so sure of your "wisdom," send your wife here.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:48 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

On what basis do you think we can ever get good statistics on infidelity and infidelity outcomes? People lie in interviews, and they lie in surveys. And much of A activity is not observable anyway.

What you read on SI is more than 2 decades of experience. That's anecdotal, of course, but it's far better than nothing.

Experience shows that continued contact between a WS and an ap leads to rekindling an A.

You came here looking for people who have succeeded in making what you want work well. So far, no one has claimed to maintain a friendship with an ap. Ex-lovers can become friends. A few WSes have maintained professional relationships with their aps and R'ed. But I've been on SI almost every day since early 2011, and I don't remember any WS who has R'ed and maintained a friendship with their ap (and my memory is pretty good).

And don't kid yourself. Experience is evidence.

*****

I don’t see a single one of the sentiments I have expressed toward my OW as romantic. Not one.

I do.

The more you write, the more I see limerence, as described by Dorothy Tennov, the person who coined the term. I recommend her Love and Limerence.

*****

Have you met ow in the flesh?

*****

One of the better tests of ethics is: If, in a conflict between two parties, you didn't know which party you represent, would you still find plausible justification for the course being recommended. If I didn't know whether I was the H or the W in the scenario I just presented, I can honestly say that the course I recommend seems fair, either way.

Well, you're writing here, so my focus is on you and your getting as much of what you want as possible. Fairness is not a consideration, since life is unfair.

IMO, your best course of action is therapy and giving up your ap.

My guess is that one of your therapeutic goals might be to see your ap as she really is, not as you believe she is. Or you might use therapy figure out if slitting your belly is, in fact, a good metaphor. After all, hara-kiri is largely a matter of expunging shame.

*****

How can we help you?

Now that you know the consensus is that a WS can't build a good M while in a relationship with an ap, What are you looking for from SI?

Most posts here consist of venting, asking for info, asking for counsel, and asking for support. It helps readers when a poster asks for what they want.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:02 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

You have openly admitted that it was your friend who went NC with you, rather than you initiating it

True. Point being? Since I am honoring it, and all—and haven’t tried to contact her?

My point being I don’t think you would have no contact if it wasn’t for that. And this is confirmed by you openly admitting right after that you would be willing to keep the friendship a secret.

You blame your wife for the affair, the one you are now saying you didn’t have.

I recommend you reread my stuff.

You don’t say it directly. I am not telling you this to condemn you. I am telling you this because you lack self awareness and I was trying to bring your attention to the idea that the state of the marriage was a construct of two people. I am asking you to look at your half. Whether it came from stuffing your feelings, not being responsible for your own happiness by not having enough to feed your soul. Or other things you would not have done to this friendship as hungry as you did for reasons that are all your own and have nothing to do with your wife.

In fact, it’s taken a. Crisis in your marriage to finally express how unhappy you have been in the construct.

Again, I know being in a sexless marriage would be unfulfilling to me. So I don’t blame you for feeling lonely or wanting connection. But when I start to feel disconnect there I bring it to his attention. I communicate. I didn’t always. I did the same thing you did, I escaped into a relationship in which I became obsessed with a person.

Now you want for your wife to deal with the feelings she has about this relationship, while forcing her to face her past issues at the same time.

Well, if she had dealt with her past issues in the past, we wouldn’t have to deal with both together.

You won’t be able to address this altogether. You will need to help rebuild the trust you broke so she is safe to explore such sensitive things with you. Have you ever wondered if some of her holding back has less to do with her past but more to do with your reaction? As a woman I could see how that might be.

You are still hiding things from her to be able to have better control over her and the outcome.

Guilty. (Of no crime by doing that.)

Lying is usually not a healthy tool to create a safe and deep connection with someone. To get what you want you have to be able to give it too. Your wife senses these things on a woman’s initiation level. This is not taking you towards a deep and meaningful connection.

I am not accusing you of crimes I am telling you how you are getting in your own way.

The ws forum is for people who have had affairs. If you are now even denying that, what in the world are you looking for here?

You have actually read the web address of this bulletin board, right?

Surviving INFIDELITY?

It’s not: Surviving AFFAIRS.

Committing infidelity means you had an affair you have had an emotional affair. The fact you are even trying to do some weird semantics here is a problem towards you reaching your stated goals.

Betrayal is only repaired through honesty. All you show interest in is self preservation and getting your needs met.

Your wife needs emotional safety, trust, honesty, accountability. Not to be told you wouldn’t have done this if she hadn’t been this other way. That’s where I see you blaming her.

Someone who takes accountability for infidelity will say there were many other choices rather than investing heavily in someone outside of the marriage. It doesn’t make you a villain, it makes you a person who has some growing you need to do. And if you do it, it will unlock a path towards greater happiness and marital satisfaction.

t

o repair a marriage when there has been a breach such as infidelity is the responsibility of the person who breach.

That’s not "a M of equals" thinking & it’s exactly the sort of messed up thought this place ought to reject, but doesn’t.

It is a marriage of equals. I am in a marriage where not only am I equal, I am deeply satisfied. I am deeply loved and respected. But to keep my marriage I had to repair my betrayal. I needed to be transparent and slowly build trust back- not just in my fidelity but in proving to him that I love him and noone else. That I had been a fool in investing elsewhere instead of doing the work needed within and with him.

I am very happy and free in my marriage. Great connection and communication and sex.

I can’t even answer the bag of groceries question, it doesn’t even relate. My husband gave me a gift in giving me a chance to work on myself and not leave because of the betrayal. And when he saw I did want him and my marriage then we started working on it together. It was a process that couldn’t be charactereized as I dropped some groceries and he should help me pick them up.

It’s all this nonsense that is blocking you from having the relationship you want. It was much easier with the friend- you could present your best side always. Our spouses get a different version of us. If you want your wife to see a better version of you, maybe put forth the kind of effort you would make for your friend.

Love is patient; love is kind.

I think more than a decade is plenty patient for human love. In this world, we don't live forever.

Neither of you has to tell anyone about this, if you don't want to.

True. But what's my W supposed to tell herself?

You don't have to have sex with anyone to commit infidelity and hurt your spouse. That's why we distinguish between EAs and PAs. I never had any kind of inappropriate physical contact with my AP.

As for the first statement, I agree. But I haven't disagreed with that in the time I've been online here. As for the 2nd, I think the use of the term "Affair" necessarily means sex. The overwhelming majority of dictionaries insist that "sex" is a requisite part of what makes an affair an affair. See for yourself! Search for definition and "affair"! Now.... we could probably pick nits over what acts constitute "sex" for the purpose of drawing that distinction. Presumably, we'd agree about penetrative vaginal sex. Does anal sex count? Probably. How about oral? How about sexting? How about petting? Nude photographs? Mouth to mouth Kissing? Face kissing? Daydreaming of vaginal or anal or oral sex? There's a line to be drawn in there somewhere. To me, there's room for negotiation and disagreement over where that line gets drawn. However, "sex" (in some form) between a married person and someone outside the marriage is definitional to "affair." To me, the only PA/EA distinction coherent with that definition is: an "EA" definitionally means feelings are committed in the relationship. In "PA," there's just sex. Maybe a one-off fling between a married man and a teenaged girl outside the marriage? Maybe something transactional. Something not even important enough that the woman remembers the names of her partner. As for what kind of relationships you've had, I won't dare to "go there." That's your history and it's not mine to judge.

But... a truly sexless relationship that still violates a marriage? That's a disordered relationship/friendsdhip. Not an EA.

I think she was very clear that she didn't want to interfere with your marriage or hurt your wife. If you can't respect your W's feelings about resuming contact, why can't you respect hers? Again, this hope of yours is interfering with your reconciliation process. I don't think OW would want that, do you?

I think you're correct. That doesn't change what I want, though.

I know I will always want to bring my OW back into my life

You can't know that.

Agree to disagree?

Frankly, I know I would be willing to keep the friendship in secret.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM! IF YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT A SECRET FROM YOUR SPOUSE, IT'S NOT FAITHFUL BEHAVIOR! I fucking hate this term, but that can't be labelled anything other than "wayward thinking." You have to rid yourself of that willingness to deceive in order to become a safe partner. Deception and secrecy are the tools with which we violate our spouses' boundaries for our own gain.

I knew you'd hate that nugget of honesty from me. I didn't share it to provoke you; it's just the truth. What I said after, though, is also the truth: I don't think my OW would participate in a secret friendship. So... my own "moral vulnerability" there is honestly immaterial.

WTF do I do if it looks like my W will truly never let me re-friend my OW?

Change your thinking from "My W is keeping me from this special friendship" to "I am voluntarily relinquishing this friendship, even though it's painful to do so, because I value my wife and my marriage more and I don't want to cause her distress." Or, if you don't value your W and your marriage more, end the marriage.

This is such a hard concept for non-Catholics to grasp, but c'mon, Morbs--you're smart enough to "get there": Catholic marriage is conceptually absolutely and utterly unbreakable. On a moral level, divorce literally means nothing to a Catholic. Nullification is a totally different ball of wax--but nullification doesn't dissolve a marriage. It erases it. It says: There was a misimpression given that these 2 people were once married. They weren't. That's conceptually totally different from divorce--but there are specific criteria that allow or disallow nullification. "Wanting to be divorced" isn't one of those criteria. Neither is infidelity, BTW.

It is the anguish I carry by abiding NC with my OW that I hope earns me a modicum of cred with my BS

That will most likely have the opposite effect, unfortunately.

Ah, yes! One of the Great and Mysterious Catch 22s that keep WSs forever in debt to their BSs! Well... about that... I'm calling "BS."

I was 1000% faithful through more than a decade of literally no sex and little emotional support.

So was my H to his XW until he started having an affair with me and then left her when she found out about it. Lot of good that did either of them.

When I finally found the self-respect and initiative to drag my W to see a MC with me to fix those issues, my W broke me by literally shrugging her shoulders when the MC asked her if she even wanted to stay M'ed to me.

Then you could have ended the marriage, or continued suffering faithfully. Self-respect means not only seeking to meet your needs, but also abiding by your moral values and doing the right thing, even when external conditions make it challenging. Betraying those values with infidelity is a betrayal of yourself as much as it is of your spouse.

Once again, Morbs: Catholics can't actually end marriages like that. You want to believe we can? Fine. I won't argue this point again. I've said this over and over; I'm blue in the face already and the cows have come home: Divorce means nothing morally to a Catholic. The rest of what you've said there has a certain coherency to it. But you've overlooked the word initiative. Or, really... self-initiative. To work to fulfil one's own needs. That's not a bad thing, per se, right? You'd tell you H: touch me "there"! You'd tell your child (if old enough): Don't ask for a glass of milk. Get it yourself! Where you have a point is in saying that the ask of us humans is that our self-control should trump our self-initiative/self-advocacy. On that front, you "win." The moral thing to have done would've been to accept ongoing suffering. Well... then I'm immoral. Cast me into the fires, I guess! There are some wounds--lasting long enough--that are just simply greater than me. The bar is pretty high. But it's not insurmountable. Guilty. Call off my Canonization!

Have you heard of the terms "hysterical bonding" and "the pick me dance?"

Only the latter.

I call it "a lack of remorse," and we do not recommend BSes to reconcile with WSes who do not exhibit remorse. If you're so sure of your "wisdom," send your wife here.

Then I am very glad that you don't have my W's ear.

Oh, I'm not leaving. I'm just not drinking the Kool-Aide and I'm cutting back on my time commitment here.

But I'm not here seeking to be persuaded. On the contrary, I'm here to do some persuading. You're all wrong.

You've not bad people. You've just got the whole... "groupthink" thing going on. You need a sensible outsider to call you out on having swallowed the blue pill.

The only thing you're accomplishing with these absurd comments is embarrassing yourself.

This community is not going to be changed by you. Nearly 90,000 members have come and gone over two decades. There is a wealth of hard learned lessons and hard earned wisdom within these virtual pages. It is not "group think" or "Red Pill vs. Blue Pill" bullshit. These are the stories of real people, their real experiences, their real pain, their real growth, and the accumulation of real knowledge and real wisdom.

When you're ready to stop behaving like a child, get your head out of your ass, and seek to understand rather than to be understood, then this community might be able to help you.

sisoon

Have you met ow in the flesh?

No. And I probably never will--sad to say.

IMO, your best course of action is therapy and giving up your ap.

Thanks for your advice.

Now that you know the consensus is that a WS can't build a good M while in a relationship with an ap, What are you looking for from SI?

A sounding board. An opportunity to escape the echo chamber of my own headspace. Not really a chance to learn an entirely different philosophy. An opportunity to help others in the future.

HikingOut

You blame your wife for the affair, the one you are now saying you didn’t have.

You don’t say it directly. I am not telling you this to condemn you.

I don't say it... directly? How about... I don't say it... at all! How about... I don't even think it!

Unless your name IRL is Saint Peter... condemn me... don't condemn me...

Now you want for your wife to deal with the feelings she has about this relationship, while forcing her to face her past issues at the same time.

You won’t be able to address this altogether. You will need to help rebuild the trust you broke so she is safe to explore such sensitive things with you.

"Won't be able," huh? Well... uh... we just did--and now--very reluctantly--she is agreeing to get help that she has needed for 40 years. So... you can just be the judge of your own opinion on that front henceforth.

I know my W. I love my W. I will serve my W. I will not be told my anyone here what my brilliant W can and cannot do.

There is more in this world--and even in my W and me--than what you've dared to dream!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:34 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Search for definition and "affair"!

Extramarital affair refers to a romantic or sexual relationship between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. This term generally describes a secret or illicit connection that violates the exclusivity expectations of the primary marriage, often involving infidelity or adultery.

Key characteristics include:

Secrecy: The relationship is typically concealed from the spouse.

Scope: It can range from purely physical encounters to deep emotional or romantic attachments.

I typed "define extramarital affair," just for the record...

*ETA: I did try your prompt first and got this:

affair
/ə-fâr′/

noun

Something done or experienced; a matter or event.
Preparing dessert was a messy affair.
A matter of personal concern.
What I did is my own affair.
A matter causing public scandal and controversy.
the Dreyfus affair.

That's why I added "extramarital."

[This message edited by Pogre at 9:55 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Pogre - Please leave this thread?

If you're going to present information dishonestly, then I really find no value in your posts.

The Cambridge, Oxford, American Heritage, Britannica, and Collins dictionaries all require "sex" as part of an affair. Webster's--the outlier--more modestly calls an "affair" an "amorous relationship"--but then defines "amorous" as "strongly moved by love and especially sexual love."

[This message edited by Unconventional at 10:05 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Pogre - Please leave this thread?

If you're going to present information dishonestly, then I really find no value in your posts.

I presented nothing dishonestly. Those were the first definitions that popped up for both prompts. Right at the top of my page.

Pogre

Fine. Post. Don't post. When I see you posted something, I'll not be reading it any longer.

Pogre

Fine. Post. Don't post. When I see you posted something, I'll not be reading it any longer.

I'll just assume your delay with this reply was due to you checking my "honesty."

I'll also note that you didn't challenge it further...

Carry on!

*ETA: Then I saw your edit, something you do a lot of.

I didn't need to cherry pick through dictionaries to find a preferred definition. I went with the first 2 that popped up in my searches. Dictionaries are descriptive not prescriptive. The definitions I found hold just as much water as yours. They were at the top of my page. I went with what's used most commonly.

[This message edited by Pogre at 10:19 PM, Thursday, October 15th]

Now we are going backwards

[self-removed]

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:53 PM, Thursday, October 15th]